PixelFish ([info]pixelfish) wrote,
@ 2008-04-22 08:50:00
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The Boobs
Two references among my f-list, one semi-oblique and one less oblique, to the Open Source Boob project got me googling this morning.


(Another edit: The Open Source Boob project, to sum up, is a bunch of people handing out buttons at a con, wherein you indicate if you are up to being asked if your boobs can be touched. I'd suggest Googling for more context than my entry provides.)

And my initial reaction is here: NO.

And especially en masse, NO.

Reasons being: Do you know what a nerdy girl, or at least, this particular nerdy girl has done in weaker moments because she wanted to fit in, to be liked, to not stand out, to not seem too uptight. Fortunately, not all that much. I think my extreme moment involved flashing some friends at another friend's bachelor party, and the trauma I have about that is low to near non-existent. But obviously not entirely non-existent because otherwise I wouldn't be mentioning it here. The reason I flashed my male friends is because they had flashed me first, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT, I felt like I should reciprocate with an equal display. God knows why (sarcasm) but somehow I had picked up the notion that my body was there for the appeasement of others. Eradicating that idea has taken no little time.

I get the concept. But practising it in public, en masse, is creating a situation where you are creating an expectation. And if a girl doesn't want to participate, even if your intentions are entirely benign, she IS NOT LIVING IN YOUR HEAD. She doesn't know that. She may participate even if she doesn't entirely want to, because the social pressure is great.

And I know some of you are thinking, Grow a spine.

Yes, well, about that. Not all of us got to grow up in super strong feminist households that gave you self-respect in your mother's milk. I'm still accreting my spine. (I get the spare parts from the junk yard.) But thank you for creating YET another situation where I get to see if the poor thing works or not. Thanks for creating a situation which I would personally have ulcers over the rest of the day.

Finally, I gotta note that my initial googling did not turn up mention of a Rub Your Feet Club or a May I Touch Your Ass Coalition. Just Open Source Boobs. (Oh, wait, it looks like there is an edit at the end of the initial OSBoobs entry. One little line about the guys being open source as well.)

Funny thing, folks note, it is as simple as asking. Yes. Yes, it is. Asking people PRIVATELY where they can decline graciously or accept enthusiastically is GREAT. Asking people in public if you can enjoy their bodies by touching, not so much. If'n you wanna look, fine, go ahead. Appreciate my curvy female form in the privacy of your own mind. Thanks.


Edited to add: this situation reminds me of one of the etiquette points practised by the S/M community, which is that you don't usually* take your play to public places. Like even if your SO lets you slap them around in private, you don't do it in public.

*Usually. I think at community events like Folsom Street Fair, there's a certain amount of leeway.


Edited to add again: I have very few problems with the situation as it initially occured within the small group of people talking to each other. But I do kind of balk at the idea of then asking other people to participate outside that group. Taking it on the road. If you want to share your idea, you do so, but you create a safe space for that sharing to occur. Just springing it on a girl in a corridor at a Con? Mrfl.

Edited a third time: Don't know this person but I agree with both points A and B: http://pleonastic.livejournal.com/309350.html

I will perhaps discuss some more after work. Gotta skibble.



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[info]pabba
2008-04-22 01:37 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, this almost got me to return from my blogging break. It's both ridiculous and disgusting, but I'm more horrified at the number of people shouting "Yes! Touch my boobs!" than anything else.

Like you said, the concept is there. But isn't practical at all.

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[info]pixelfish
2008-04-22 02:56 pm UTC (link)
It seems like the idea was ripped solely from a utopian ideal without regard for real-world pressures. (Also, it may not have been this way, but the post I read was very male-world-view, at least in not understanding what sort of comments and requests and demands and outright impositions women deal with every day in terms of bodily integrity.)

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[info]kadath
2008-04-22 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Of course it's [info]theferrett. Of course.

I long for the con where some mouthbreather tries to recruit me for this idiocy. I will destroy him for all you ladies who didn't, as you say, imbibe self-respect with mother's milk.

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[info]pixelfish
2008-04-22 02:38 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I could probably destroy him NOW. But that's because my life experiences to date have stiffened the spine immensely. Still, not everybody's experiences have....and ideally, I'd like the cons to be a safe place. Or FEEL like a safe place.

I'd still love to have front row seats for the annihilation. :)

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[info]unpleasant
2008-04-22 10:57 pm UTC (link)
That's weird. Cons DO feel like a safe place for me, which is hilarious given how exhausting and stressful they are for me. It's the place wherein I am most likely to defend myself the most vigorously, the most arrogantly. That's my fucking house. Offenses to my authority are not tolerated.

It's saddens me that someone can go to a con and go home with the impression that if only more (female) sexuality was on display it would have been better.

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[info]pixelfish
2008-04-22 11:10 pm UTC (link)
A few non-SF people were understandably put off by the idea of cons after reading this. I tried to reassure them for the most part I'd not experienced this sort of behaviour. (And I even when I wore my elf costume or my short skirt, I don't recall being groped in any way, or having people ask me anything other than could they take my picture. I HAVE been groped in other places, so cons feel relatively safe for me. Partly, I want to think that geeks are better than that.)

(
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A few non-SF people were understandably put off by the idea of cons after reading this. I tried to reassure them for the most part I'd not experienced this sort of behaviour. (And I even when I wore my elf costume or my short skirt, I don't recall being groped in any way, or having people ask me anything other than could they take my picture. I HAVE been groped in other places, so cons feel relatively safe for me. Partly, I want to think that geeks are better than that.)

(<lj-user="grumpymartian">--below---reports a different experience and I have heard of stories like the imfamous Harlan Ellison gropage of Connie Willis. So I'm not completely naive.)

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[info]ckd
2008-04-22 02:36 pm UTC (link)
I was at Penguicon and completely unaware of this until I saw a number of posts about this, most notably this one.

Your first and second edits together really crystallized one of the problems I have with the idea as described. Having a semi-closed "touch party"? Sounds great. Touchy-feely in front of the lobby elevator bank? Not so much.

While I didn't see or otherwise experience any of the "OSB" stuff during the con, I did see a "lingerie party" room in the party block. There was a sign outside explaining the rules, and there were people at the door apparently quite ready to enforce 'em. There was also a curtain hung across the door to handle the line-of-sight issue. That strikes me as a very adult and appropriate way to do this sort of thing.

(WRT the third edit: I've known [info]pir_anha from USENET for a long time, and we've met briefly as well.)

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[info]pixelfish
2008-04-22 02:50 pm UTC (link)
I have some further thoughts on touching and physical comfort which I hope to expand on later. (When not at work.) I personally agree with the sentiment that I wish our world was more comfortable about physical affection. I disagree highly with the implementation of this idea, and indeed, after re-reading some sentences from the posts you linked, I do question whether this is reducing objectification. Some of the sentences people highlighted mentioned breasts as "assets."

I also rather resent the appropriation of "sex positive" in this context. It's starting to feel like a lever.

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[info]grumpymartian
2008-04-22 09:20 pm UTC (link)
Apparently the guy behind this has realized how this idea would work in a wider Con context and has called the whole thing off.

I can see how it would work quite well in certain groups and circles (that often go to cons) but it just can't work on a con-wide sort of deal. The sad truth is that people (hey I'm not going to blame just guys, though it would seem to skew that way) use the crowded nature of Cons to grope others and slip away into the crowd without being caught.

I know that I myself, have wheeled around thinking if not saying "Whoever just groped me is going to lose a hand!" more than once at a single ComicCon. I do not cosplay, I do not dress sexy, I wear jeans and t-shirts to ComicCon and it has happened many times even while accompanied.

I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time, but this is a Bad Idea TM.

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[info]pixelfish
2008-04-22 11:12 pm UTC (link)
What works for some people doesn't work for everybody.

And yeah, I can see this getting out of hand quickly.

(What I need like a hole in the head: ANOTHER reason for my friends and acquaintances to regard me suspiciously for my con-going ways.)

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[info]the__seeker
2008-04-22 10:50 pm UTC (link)
Speaking as a male, you hit the nail on the head. I'm not the con-going type, but i'm glad this got called off.

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[info]pixelfish
2008-04-22 11:13 pm UTC (link)
I think most people would just prefer to negotiate their private boundaries on a one-to-one basis anyways.

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[info]the__seeker
2008-04-22 11:14 pm UTC (link)
Unless they have a humorous t-shirt declaring otherwise!

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[info]ersatz_marduk
2008-04-23 06:42 am UTC (link)
I've got to take exception to only one statement:

Finally, I gotta note that my initial googling did not turn up mention of a Rub Your Feet Club or a May I Touch Your Ass Coalition. Just Open Source Boobs.

The lack of any sort of relevant point there detracts from an otherwise well stated position.




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[info]pixelfish
2008-04-23 01:24 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I was trying to point out that it seemed at first that there was no equivilant for guys. That only the boobs were open-source. (BTW, while they mentioned ass touching later on, I don't feel that asses are equivilant to boobs...there is no way a guy's ass has the same focus of society upon it. For one thing, we don't see them splashed on the cover of mainstream mags, nor do we see a constant barrage of ads for ass enhancement, or products aimed at making a guy's ass more attractive to women. The only equivilant would be the penis--which DOES have a modicum of the same cultural baggage women have aimed at them. But the penis seemed to be off-limits. One commenter said something about how it would be hard to be detached from the experience with the penis bucking and writhing in the hand.)

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[info]ersatz_marduk
2008-04-25 12:49 am UTC (link)
...there is no way a guy's ass has the same focus of society upon it.

It was awfully helpful to Mel Gibson's career.

For one thing, we don't see them splashed on the cover of mainstream mags...

That's because it's hard to show one's face at the same time. Yes, you've seen neck-down ads as well as butt shots, and most of each of those are of females, but magazine covers nearly always show a face, even if eyes are hidden.

...nor do we see a constant barrage of ads for ass enhancement...

Sure we do. They're usually called fitness magazines.

But the penis seemed to be off-limits.

So was the vagina. Breasts aren't genitalia. The commentator in question could certainly distinguish between the two, despite the overexcited and imaginative words about penile activity. Anyone who's learned to accept that babies are entitled to be publicly fed from their mother's mammaries should also be able to make the distinction.

Besides, it's not all boobs from the male perspective either. Jennifer Lopez demonstrated that years ago. John Turner earned flak over a bottom pat. The whole booty image has gone well beyond fetish, and there's the whole matter of the common meaning for "tap that ass" as, "have sexual intercourse with" than "have anal intercourse with".

Still, breasts have gotten overemphasized in part because they're often an indicator of an individual's post-pubescent state. Such a prominent change can be downright intimidating to others, even threatening, and you know how badly peer groups respond to perceived threats. Conversely, the popularity of breast augmentation surgery (the American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery reports 344,990 procedures performed last year in the United States) suggests that at least some find, or hope to find, that change empowering for themselves, for much the same reason people get tattoos, piercings, a new hair colour -- or even a change of gender (though that's a matter of self-identity, rather than self-image).

Objectification of people is bad, but that's harder to do when you need to talk with them first. You see more of it every day in a shopping mall, public transit, or even on the road with people failing to acknowledge one another as anything but obstacles to be avoided or means to an end than you do in the eyes of a lech. The hands are another matter, one that almost makes something like the OSB Project seem like an overdue necessity, sad as that is.

Maybe the Open Source Face Project would have been better, even with the number of people I know who'd rather be touched anywhere else. Or maybe just the Open Source Greeting Project, though there'd still be button wearers that nobody would so much as say, "Hi," to. Then again, that gets away from the points that body parts are just non-mystical objects, and that any viewing and handling privileges are entirely at the discretion of their owner.

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[info]pixelfish
2008-04-25 01:47 am UTC (link)
Actors and actresses are statistical outliers from what the everyday person experiences. In their case, their attractiveness is part of their bankability. And still, males revealing their ass on-screen happens MUCH less than women revealing their breasts.

On the average, would you say your ass gets as much attention from the female gender as my boobs get from the male gender? Just curious.

...

re: objectification - I tend to feel that there are many ways you can practise being non-objectifying of others that don't involve ASKING them to renegotiate their boundaries on the fly.

Anyway, if Random Joe Conguy has some kind of weird mental issue with mammaries, it is NOT incumbent upon me to be his therapy. Or for him to even ASK about that. It creates an instant state of threat, for me at least, and probably for many other women. (It's nice that it doesn't for some women and that there are women who would be willing to help him with that, BUT he should not being playing social Russian roulette with the boundaries of everybody around him.)

...

Here's an interesting post: http://synecdochic.livejournal.com/213567.html?thread=8601151#t8601151

...

BTW, I'm going to reiterate that I'm not against the idea of friendly touching (backrubs, footrubs, braiding hair, etc.) among friends or in situations where it's been negotiated. Hey, I've received some much appreciated backrubs from you, particularly when I was feeling shitty due to cat allergies.

Where this whole project became problematical was precisely when it became a Project. (Now, I've been told that the original instigators didn't have that intent, but the post didn't read that way. Nor did many of the comments following.) It was taking a concept to a wider space where it was inappropriate. And the implementation of the concept was lacking somewhat I felt.

I did spend some time talking about this with one of my friends, who, like me, would probably like to be touched or hugged a little more than society allows. We pondered wearing buttons like "hugslut" or "Ask me about footrubs" where the onus would fall on nobody but us. We wouldn't be pre-emptively asking other people to share anything of themselves, but they would know we were up for hugs or backrubs or whatever. But making a movement out of it...meh.

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